Creatively is the show over?

[chuck]

Okay, the first three stories of this season, well, include RUNAWAY BRIDE and well, that's the worst. Anyway SMITH AND JONES: yeah, don't care about Martha much, nor the Doc. He's sorta dismissive of people, which is like his other selves i guess but what with living for 900 years or more, you'd think he'd be this enlightened character, he's not, he's behaving like a brat who has had his teddy taken away and like a child who just wants to see more and more and do whatever and jump to the next thing. He's going backwards. Freyma is ok but no Piper. And the plot is nicked from three or four old series OUTER LIMITS, where they were done much better. Vampires. Moon. Oh ho hum. Boring really but not awful. Martha's family? Don't care for them much if at all, and I'm including the later eps that I've seen too. SHAKESPEARE CODE: better and ok, not awful. Why must every historical now have some alien monsters though? And why must they always meet a historical figure. It's ok but not fantastic. GRIDLOCK: Probably the best of the first three but again, they, the writers that is, are going over old ground, again. We get an old monster, an old planet---and some nice emotional scenes that Tennant almost pulls off but not quite. The whole thing was nice but again, without Rose there is no emotional connection or center. Martha simply is. I had the same complaint about the old show. After having so many Earth girls over and over and over, they finally tried someone different with Romana and to a smaller extent Leela, then Adric and Nyssa, despite with others think, are excellent new ideas for companions. But then we get Tegan, Peri, Mel, and Ace. Pity they went back to Earth girls. It's too easy for them. Martha, despite differences from Rose, is still just an Earth girl from the present. In 42 they end up in danger frm the sun or a sun, trapped on a ship away from the TARDIS and separated. How many retreads is that from seasons 1 and 2?I feel the show creatively is in a slump, doing the same old safe thing over and over. ANd should I get started on the two part Dalek story this season? Visually it's the best DW has ever been. BUt it's awful. The Doc talks himself out of getting killed over and over but can't do the same for most others, the make up is silly on the pigs and the Dalek human...just childish and not at all disturbing, people die over and over again for no real purpose. The Daleks could hae stopped teir own humans but didn't. And the worst is when the huan Daleks piont at the Doctor with their guns and in true Maxwell Smart from GET SMART fashion he gets them to change their guns to point at the Daleks and then the Daleks do the same and back and forth it goes. This story is almost worse than TIME AND THE RANI. The show is in a total slumpand putting something like this two part tale on is just showing it further. I have little to no care or hope for the rest of the season. Oh look an almost Doctor less story just like last season. Oh, look, a big two part finale, just like last season. And oh look, Capt Jack's back and overacts again. Oh look the Doc lands in Cardiff. WHO CARES? I no longer do.

[The Thinker]

In response to the question in the thread title: "No. Not in my opinion. Far from it I say." It has recurring themes, but whenever each one is brought back, it's implemented in a new way. I'm pretty sure most people would disagree with what you've said (though, we are all entitled to our opinions), but in the end it just boils down to how you look at things. In the long run, I think the writers are building up to something and creativity is one of the things that is so far, not lacking.

[Mark Senior]

This time last year I showed an episode of Doctor Who to a class of twelve year olds (we were studying media techniques). Some of them hadn't heard of it, some thought it was for little kids and most of them had never watched it because they thought it would be crap. A couple knew and liked the show. 45 minutes later they were all (and that's all, i.e. every single one) enthralled, delighted and terrified. They begged to see another one. Today, a year to the day later, I had another class, another episode and the same reactions, start and finish of the lesson, as last year. The show is not over "creatively" (in whatever way you mean, script, tone, sfx, acting, direction etc.) because it is a show for kids (of all ages, including yours) and it hits the target brilliantly more often than not.

The episodes were Empty Child and Blink if you were wondering. Same writer but different Doctors.

[chuck]

well yeah, if you have to pick you picked good ones. But what if you showed them...say NEW EARTH, DALEKS IN MANHATTAN and the rest of that mess, or the Master two parter at the end of season 3? Or Runaway Bride?

[Mark Senior]

I take your point, some episodes left a lot to be desired. New Earth, Gridlock (which you liked) and the Daleks/Manhattan two parter were lows for me, too, but my own children (ages 3 to 11) liked those episodes and we were all very happy with the Master trio. What was wrong with the latter (apart from the flying platform nicked out of a Gerry Anderson puppet serial)? That bit with the Master dancing as the Toclafane poured out of the sky was brilliant. And don't get me started on his wife. Creeepy. Sally Sparrow was wonderful, The Judoon were a great addition to the aliens we've encountered (the compensation joke was better than any joke from the 1963-89 series) and Martha was plausible and beautiful - okay, I don't ask for much more - from the first moment. This show is as funny and lively and intelligent as it has ever been, it's better acted and has better effects than it has had before. I didn't check how old you are but do remember it has a target audience in the 8-12 bracket, though I know a lot of adults who love it. And the motorway chase sequence in Runaway Bride was pure class, particularly BECAUSE it was silly and wrong and couldn't have happened with Doctors 1-7 in charge.

[chuck]

The Master dancing was so over the top and embarassing...the wife was downplayed and boring. The TOclafane morbid and depressing, to think the human race will end up like that and that the Doctor will allow that! I'll give you Sally Sparrow and I find Blink is great in almost every respect. I don't think the Judoon were that great and the stor was okay but not really up there. That you think show is as funny and lively and intelligent as it has ever been, it's better acted and has better effects than it has had before is questionable. In some respects it was. HUMAN NAUTRE/ FAMILY OF BLOOD, BLINK, and the motorway chase sequence in Runaway Bride and with imagination it couild have happened with any of the other Doctors I think. The trouble with Runaway Bride was the rest of the "story" which was boring, tedious repetitious even among it's own self contained hour...let alone with the rest of DW. I even liked 42 but it...when you think about it's plot points...doesn't really make much sense. The two part Dalek story was the worst ever...until the awful Master stories.

Okay I mentioned the dancing Master, but then there's the wild rock music...not a plus. The reset button. The misuse of Capt Jack. THe macho posturing in Utopia. Martha stops to say a whole speech to the Doctor before escaping. The Doctor is a God like figure now capable of being revived in a Peter Pan-ish manner...and while I love that in Peter Pan, I don't feel very good about it in Doctor Who. Very coy, very silly, very embarassing. The Doctor turning old is one thing but making him look like a cartoon quite another. The Master was badly cast in John Simm. I could almost think that Derek Jacobi would have made a great Master but John Simm? That prat? Sorry, not buying it. He IS the worst Master ever. Martha's family is boring, bland and unfunny, disloyal for most of their appearance, and well, just not good additions. Martha is in the love with the Doctor so she leaves. Frankly I liked that the DOctor got rejecgted by Donna in RB, serves him right and that was one of the only good scenes in RB. THe Master story didn't really happen did it? Reset. I wish it never ever happened. One year later...we realize it will be reset right there. Little boy turned into a Toclafane. Depressing. ahh, yes, so the Master's had drums in his head all this time. Oh yeah, he seems to be in love with the Doctor too. THe Doctor will dish out harsh punishments to spider babies and the family of blood, who deserved it but now he's all Godlike and forgives the Master...what next? Giving confession to Davros? Who will undoubtably appear in season four or five or the specials where everyone's taking a break. Ahh and let's not forget Capt Jack being so underused...and then revealing he MIGHT be the face of Boe. Great. Why bother watching Torchwood when you know the hero is going to end up as a giant alien face who dies in teh future and we've seen it already? Oh and added to the fact that RTD FORGOT...FORGOT! to put in a plot point...that the Master was able to step into the gap in time created by the Docvtor when he brought down Harriet Jones...who was supposed to be Prime Minister for a lot longer time. HOw could that happen--how could he forget that?? That would have made a much more interesting twist on things. Yeah there's more too: why is the TARDIS afraid of Capt Jack being immortal? Hasn't the TARDIS encountered immortal beings before? The Doc himself once said he was immortal...and why didn't the TARDIS avoid the Face of Boe/who is I guess Jack? Seeing Jack run for the TARDIS andjump onto it is embarassing! Sigh.

Frankly, if it were me, I'd make ONE show not three, Torchwood and Sarah Jane are cheaper to make, expendable shows that sap the crews more. If they were to put all their effort into DW...and expand the season some more, with new writers, new musicians, new producer and perhjaps even a new Doctor...maybe trhings would not be so...variable. One story is great, the next is awful, one story is so so, the next great, the next three expendable. The two Dalek two parter this season and the Master three parter are so awfully bad, so terrible, and then we point to Time CRash...how bad was that...not to mention the flat RUnaway Bride...and DW seems to be downward heading in quality if not in ratings.

DW has been better; Chris's only season and even season two...mind you NEW EARTH is almost as bad as TIme and the Rani and that was really DW at its worst.

Now I see they are bringing back Rose. Sigh. Get a new life. Get a new idea. Get a new storyline.

Dw should be about traveling in time and space, OCCASIONALLY meeting historical figures, fighting aliens, meeting allies, having fun...with SOME dark stories and a lot of death yeah that too. It should mean something most of the time but not all the time. It should be entertaining and follow logic some of the time. For me, I'm so dissapointed in the Master trilogy (especially LAST OF THE TIME LORDS) I was ready to give up on the show totally (as I was after TIME AND THE RANI, which followed that equally horrible TRIAL OF A TIME LORD). JNT started out as a great producer for DW...he stayed too long no matter the circumstances and he ran DW into the ground. The story "editor" Eric Saward also ran DW into the ground, not knowing what he was doing. It never fully recovered from TRIAL and McCoy's first three mostly awful stories. Colin's first year (before Trial) had many good ideas but many awful stories including that horrible TWO DOCTORS (What was that about?) and the execution of most stories was so poor, the series was then put on a rest...and truth be known, it should have been cancelled then and there. Colin was a good Doctor, so was McCoy and Davison (I think!? after all he let a companion die which is something I"m sure we will live to see in this new revival show the way it's going) but the scripts went downhill once Davison (and one can argue Tom Baker) left. Once Eric Saward came into the show, the scripts became worse and worse. Any scripts that were any good...the writers weren't asked back. No one knew what was good anymore. They began casting big name stars...do you see a parallel?

I'm sure the Master will come back...I wanted him back the first time but not like the way they did it. It would have been better to scale down his invasion or make it so that he was stopped some other way....Oh, I've goneon too long, haven't I"?

I guess what it amounts to is that DW could be GREAT (as in season one of the new show and possibly seasons 16 to 19, excluding Time Flight, of the old show) with SOME mis-steps. As it is, it's minor so so-ness amid a bunch of embarassing garbage (but hey, what do I know, I liked FEAR HER) like DALEKS IN MANHATTEN/EVOLUTIONS OF THE DALEKS, LAST OF THE TIME LORDS, RUNAWAY BRIDE, TIME CRASH, and NEW EARTH.

[chuck]

ahh and I must admit having Martha leave feels like the writers were not happy with the character (I was) and are ditching her to try something new. Putting her on Torchwood could be a big mistake. I do like that she left the Doctor to pursue her old life (I guess) but it will have to wait to be seen if she is doing just that or is she going to have to have a life like the Doctor's cause...well, he's just so cool isn't he? I mean everyone has to love the Doctor now too, right? I imagine they will make Donna also fall head over heels for him eventually. Oh and Rose? It will have to wait to see why and how she's back. Instead of living her life, is she, like loser Sarah Jane, pining away for the Doc, making every effort to get back to her lover? It's almost pathetic...yet is is a story that needs to be told but how many times and with how many companions?

[Mark Senior]

I loved reading your diatribe because it shows a lot of passion and insight, even though I don't always agree with it. But that is why the new show is so absorbing. Some moments are pure DW for me: little things like the 9th Doctor's speech in 'Rose' about feeling the world turn was so atmospheric and alien; the Master's drumming fingers after he gassed the cabinet was disturbing and redolent of 60s sci-fi. That allows me to forgive a Transmat beam that can take people out of the TARDIS or Capt Jack hanging on to the outside to the end of the universe, things that are just wrong.
Don't get so wound up by the Face of Boe, it never said he was Jack, and he doesn't have to be to make the story work. And wasn't forgiving the Master a result of the Doctor's guilt at wiping out the rest of the Time Lords including his own family?
As for the Harriet Jones thing, I don't think RTD forgot, it's just that the point doesn't need labouring, particularly as it would have been an echo of the Long Game/Bad Wolf story. That's another thing I like about RTD. He takes a show that for 26 years was predicated on the Doctor getting into the TARDIS and leaving and he starts to look at what might have been happening, both to whole civilizations and to companions like Sarah Jane, or their families, while the Doctor was on his next adventure.

Runaway Bride was no more than okay, but any show that ends by washing spiders down the plughole has got to have its plus points. Fear Her was crap, but you liked it anyway. So did my kids. Maybe that makes me wrong. (Obviously not, it was crap, but most of the rest of the season was brilliant).
Time Crash? A 5 minute charity sketch knocked off in an afternoon, just pretend it was a dream and your pain will soon fade.
On the whole I think the show has got years left in it and it will continue to surprise and delight. And if it doesn't, I've got the DVD of the Master dancing to cheer me up.

[chuck]

Thanks for your kind comments. I appreciate it. I like to get across opinions on both sides without name calling or mean-ness. Fear Her's only bad side was the Olympic thing. As for Last of the Time Lords: RTD did forget: he told us he forgot in DWMagazine. Also: how does the Master thumbing the DW theme tune evoke 60s stuff? Not sure so I'm asking. The Master dancing a good thing? Okay.

I don't think the show has a lot left before they decide as in the 1980s to "give it a rest" this time permanently or at least for another 16 or so years...just in time to give the franchise another Doctor to put into novels, comics, audios, spinoffs, etc.

Any show that has to take a rest...well, there's something wrong. Any producer or crew that is making three shows and has to have the main one, the most popular one (at least I think it gets better ratings than Torchwood) take a rest...is a worrying thing. And the show is starting to repeat itself in only its third year. So yeah, it's worrying that they have to bring back Rose. It's like, "Oh she's not working out, nor will she, so here's the first back," which I'm sure is going to bomb faster than a Capt Jack macho fest in UTOPIA and his almost non participation in the other two this year...

but time will tell...

and yeah they are now doing to do FIRES OF VULCAN from the Big Finish range. And most likely LUNGBARROW, which will probably take place on...am I repeating myself too? d**n. I'd better go watch PRIMEVAL, which IMO is more like 50s and 60s sci fic, only it's entertaining, with real life type characters and unpredictable plots, not always working but fun, fun fun. Just like DW was in 2005 and 2006.

[chuck]

Here's something I posted on another board when someone said they think Donna will fall for the Doctor :


Yeah probably. Otherwise, the writers/producers will feel that the audience will think the Doctor's not cool or something...which he NEVER was really. The Doctor's not cool guys, so get over it. David, you're not cool! You're the Doctor so start acting like it again!!!!

And I bet she will get jealous when Martha reappears and when Rose reappears. Frankly, I predict Martha will probably die or one of them will. The Doc will regenrate at the very end of season four after a three part LUNGBARROW redo/retread/reimagining, etc.

The show's in trouble when it has to take a rest and make specials, a shorter season ala 1985. It's also in trouble when it has the crew split between two other shows and itself and it is the one taking a rest. Soon it will be taking a rest permanently. Or for 16 more years or so while the franchise has an 11th Doctor to use in the comics, audios, novels, etc. THAT'S the real plan.

[chuck]

The other things I'm uneasy about are some of the underlying RTD things: no God (and yet in TORCHWOOD and even in SATAN PIT) there is some idea that there may be more than the Doctor (and RTD?) believe, some God like force. The other idea is that unless we are with someone, unless we have someone love us, unless we are in an active and healthly relationship with someone else, we are not worth anything. We're damaged goods (To coin, well not to coin a phrase). BTW love RTD's book DAMAGED GOODS to pieces but it's very very dark. There's also an undercurrent of mean-ness in some of the works in the shows which is difficult to pinpoint. People see expendable to the main charcters sometimes. There's more but I forgot a good prt of it and you're probably thinking, "Thank God for THAT!"

[Mark Senior]

I'm not sure about God-like forces, both Satan Pit and TW had big demons stamping about but I get the idea they are old creatures from the younger universe and therefore the template for our own demonic imagery.

Expendable? Like the crewman in the red shirt in every episode of Star Trek who you know isn't going to see his wife and kids again. I'm sure someone expendable meets their maker in almost every DW story since 1963. Let's ask the Time Team.

[Mark Senior]

Somehow I mised the fact you sent in three posts.

60s sci-fi? It just reminded me of that surreal quality in The Prisoner or The Avengers. Nothing more.

You say the show doesn't have much left. Outside of the flagship soaps it is the UK's highest rated show, it's not going to be dropped even if artistic bankruptcy was rife (which it isn't); the merchandising alone would keep it going, let alone the ratings victories every Saturday night of the spring. (Torchwood, on the other hand, had better pull out some spectacular figures in 2008 or there won't be a season 3).

The eleventh Doctor, whenever he arrives, whoever he is, is going to be selling a lot more remote control daleks if he comes hot on the heels of DT rather than waiting for this generation of kids to grow up and start reproducing. Anyway, what's wrong with spin-off audios, novels etc? They kept the concept alive and probably gave the new show a discipline (based on canonicity) it might not otherwise have had.

Rose's return? Probably to either retrieve/round-up all viewers for one mega finale to keep everyone interested across the rest year or (more likely) to launch Rose's spin-off series that will take the DW slot in 2009's schedules. (No, I haven't read that anywhere, I made it up).

2010, relaunch with a new Doctor, new show-runner and still as good as ever. And if not, there's always Big Finish to keep us amused.

[chuck]

By expendable I meant that people and their feelings seem expendable to the main cast as if it's cool to slag them off, make fun of them, put them down, etc. ANd I never felt right about the red shirt guys dying and almnost no one really seems to ...mind much

[chuck]

Ther'es nothing wrong with spinoffs. I like most of them in fact. I just think the main push should be the show. I felt cheated that the main show in the past was pulled and let down the tubes and then all we had was spinoffs instead. Frankly if I were RTD I would allow NO novels, no comics, and no audios. I would allow all other stuff to be put out even stuff of already made stories but I think the interesting stories have already mostly been told in the other media. Franklly some of the novels would make excellent tv stories and they should expand the DW show...am I repeating myself here? Maybe? anyway they should stop Torchwood and Sarah Jane, expand the DW season and stop all orginal story spinoffs for trhe time being, get the writers of those (most o fwhom are great) to write for DW the tv show. Just my opniion.