8th Doctor Audios Question

[jeremiahecks]

Hi folks, it's my first post - be nice. ;p

I just had a question about the 8th Doctor audios - on this site they are placed before the BBC books, in the '3 year gap', but surely this doesn't make entire sense?

The Zygon Who Fell to Earth is set after The Bodysnatchers, placing at least the Big Finish Lucie Seasons after the books. But they follow on after the Charlie Big Finish stuff, adding to the fact that Charlie isn't mentioned in BBC stuff anyway.

There are some problems that can only be solved by placing the BBC books before Big Finish - but there are some caused by it. We know Doctor 8 gets Gallifrey back after Gallifrey Chronicals, so the existence of Gallifrey isn't a problem in Big Finish. However, Romana is in 2nd incarnation in the Big Finish books. I think it's very easy to say that Big Finish's Romana stories are set for her before her BBC Book continuity but surely it is easier to suppose that when Doctor 8 restores Gallifrey, he restores her as a younger, yet wiser, body than her third. And that maybe, Romana in Zagreus is possibly... Romana 4? My head spins.

Also, I do think if you put in the Stacy / Ssard stories and the other Izzy comic stories with the ongoing Big Finish stuff, it IS rather a lot to put before the BBC stuff gets going. And besides, if Big Finish did something crazy like bring back Fitz or something, then we'd have to look at the order all over again. My head hurts.

Maybe I'm thinking too hard.

Kindest regards,
-Jeremiah Ecks,
who asks that you do NOT call him Jeremy.

[Ice Warrior]

Oct 30, 2009 12:54:16 GMT -5 jeremiahecks said:

...if Big Finish did something crazy like bring back Fitz or something, then we'd have to look at the order all over again. My head hurts...

jeremiahecks welcome to the Reference Guide forums!
Have you seen that there is an 8th Doc audio coming out that features both Izzy and Fitz in two separate stories? [www.bigfinish.com/123-Doctor-Who-The-Company-of-Friends] I have a feeling your head is about to hurt even more

I personally am not educated in the eighth Doctor's timeline, but I'm sure there is someone who would gladly entertain your questions however, sadly, there doesn't seem to be much activity happening on this forum currently. But I'm sure someone will come along eventually...

Please feel free to contribute to discussions elsewhere in the forum or even start more mind bending topics just like this one!

[jeremiahecks]

>When shelving them or reading books and listening to audios at the same time, I find it easiest to arrange a continuity based on parallel continuities, where you put them in the order that makes the most sense, and if one story doesn't entirely fit then you think of it as happening in an alternate but almost identical timeline. This actually works well.

Yeah, it works well except a) it's too boring to say 'AU' explanation (where's the fun in that!) and b) Company of Friends actually directly places them in the same continuity... or if not exactly the same, roughly the same. ;p

> It has been many years since I read The Bodysnatchers, and I haven't heard The Zygon Who Fell To Earth. What particular event in the story causes you to place it after The Bodysnatchers?

Apparently the events of one are mentioned by the other. I have read or heard neither.

> In any case, you have to remember that the Doctor doesn't experience time linearly, and therefore does not always arrive after he left if you see what I mean. I believe there is a legal/scientific restriction on TARDISes arriving on Gallifrey before they left,

They're 'time locked', just like he can't go back beyond the Time War.

> His interactions with Romana are not necessarily experienced in the same order as hers with him.

Armaggeddon Factor proves that this is definitely the case, as for Romana it's 'Blood Harvest, Goth Opera' and then 'Armageddon' whilst for the Doctor it's 'Goth Opera, Armageddon' and then 'Blood Harvest'. ;p

> I'm fairly sure that Fitz's Story in Company Of Friends fits neatly into the EDAs, just as Benny's probably fits just after The Dying Days. I actually really liked Fitz, so I hope this is a good story that may lead to more appearances of the character.

They do, and I hope they will.

> To me the length of time between the start and the bulk of the EDA line is not really that great considering that a Time Lord can plausibly live for a millenium in good physical condition, and that the Eighth Doctor is particularly prone to absent-mindedness.

Except he does say to Sam he was gone for three Earth years, and that if you put the Big Finish'es there, it severely limits what the range can do with the character to a degree.

I think I've made up my own mind anyway. ;p Just wanted to know if this site agreed.

Now to untangle Master continuity...

Kindest regards,
-Jeremiah Ecks, Continuity Miestro.

[jeremiahecks]

The Three Year reference, I think, comes from when the Doctor takes Sam Jones to the marriage of Stacy Townsend and Ssard. She kind of gets leary at him and he points out he spent three years away or something. I haven't read the book, I'm just going off of what I've been told. But they put the reference in there to tidily fit the Doctor's comic book, Shada and his solo New Adventures story in with the BBC Books continuity. This is before Big Finish shot it all to heck, in the best possible way.

You could very easily plop Big Finish into the three year gap except a) it's a LOT of stories for a mere three year gap, b) you may create future problems because if the Big Finish guys really change the Eigth Doctor's character and status quo, that might not follow where the BBC guys take him, c) creates conflicts between War of the Daleks and Terror Firma which aren't easily dealt with and d) the Eigth Doctor of the BBC books seems to have less experience early on that the Big Finish one. That is purely down to my own interpretation, o'course.

The only problems at all you face with putting the Doctor's Big Finish stories after the BBC ones are a) Romana, Leela and K-9 - but this isn't insurmountable as I hope I showed, b) that darn Mary Shelley - the Doctor travels with her around the same time as Samson and Gemma, who kick off his Big Finish continuity, but I guess he mentions Mary Shelley in the BBC books, does he?, and c) Gallifrey being back. A) & C) can be both dealt with at the same time, as I said - the Doctor restores Gallifrey somehow and in doing so, either Romana is resurrected in an earlier body or this is her fourth incarnation that just happens to mirror her second, and b) whilst more difficult is easy to sweep under the carpet of, once again, the Doctor is name-dropping without realising what is going to happen in his future.

Sigh, this is so much fun in of itself. I'm really sad, aren't I? The BBC need to hire me to be their continuity editor. ^_^

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who would love to see an 'official' resolution to some of these questions by seeing a 'final' BBC book showing the restoration of Gallifrey. Shame it was going to die a second time, though...

[jeremiahecks]

Oh, incidentally, 'time locked' seems to be a Russel T thing, but it seemed to be the right description for what I was trying to say. Some stories outright state that the Doctor can't and shouldn't meet Time Lords 'out of order' (a big thing of this is made when the Delgado Master shows up to meet I believe the Sixth - or Fifth? - Doctor). However, some don't seem to mind - the Sixth and Fifth Doctors both meet Romana when she gets back from E-Space but she hasn't technically returned yet - she comes back witn the Seventh Doctor later. So I think it's another rule, but it can be broken.

Best example is in Prisoner of the Daleks where the Doctor finds himself back along the Daleks' time stream before the Time War.

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who has just wondered if anybody has ever done a Dalek timeline? Like, one which makes sense... Oy vey.

[marcusprime]

There is also a gap post the EDA "Interference Book II" as well.
Everyone always forgets that.

[yrcanos2010]

Noob here. (to the Forums, not Doctor Who!) I can not resist this topic.

I was getting caught up on many of the Eighth Doctor novels and audios when the New Series was announced. To say the least I was really miffed. Loved Mr. Eccleston, he made perfect sense, but I hated the back story Mr. Davies thrust in to the canon because it directly contradicted the EDA novels. I also had a hard time believing with all sincerity, that the good Doctor would commit genocide of his own home (twice). No escape plan, no salvation what so ever. Just death. Until this point Doctor Who was a champion of right and justice. Then the New Series changed his age to a younger Time Lord than Silver Nemesis (in his 7th body), the regeneration "method", the oddly shaped WOODEN police box... many things seem way out of place from what I read and what I was getting in the audios. Plus he's become genocial on a massive scale. So for this discussion at the moment, I'm going to put the entire New Series on hold, as if the Latest Time War never happened.

Everything can fit rather nicely as far as I can tell. As an American getting the DW Magazine (comics) was not as easy as BB7 and the novels, so I know only what I get in here and a few other sources in regards to them. Everyone can agree that the continuities of the comics, novels and the audios can fit into a steady stream and when put together logically, then the current time line as shown here makes perfect sense (with The Gallefrey Chrinicles as the final big cliffhanger).

Many like to take the Cold Fusion rout and put the novels, comics, audios, and novels in separate parallel time lines, however Big Finish has given a tip of the hat to all in the media with shot glimpses into story lines and characters outside the Big Finish Eighth Doctor stories, telling us that they all happen to the same Doctor in the same life, unless the story calls for a specific alternative time line.

At first I put the EDA novels as a priority as they were ongoing Doctor Who that left off (for the most part) from the Virgin novels and the Virgin novels picked up where Survivor left off. For us Yanks at least, this was official, ongoing, serious Doctor Who and it ended with us knowing the possibility for Gallefrey's return.The EDA series came to a close with the New Series as well. The audios were also paramount as Doctor Who is mainly a theatrical format and character development and the rhythm of the story as a whole is an organic spontaneous production. They would by default have to (and easily do) fit into the EDA novels easily, but for one short story from Big Finish, Museum Piece.

Museum Piece is what seems to blow the whole thing to smithereens. See, we never hear a reference to the restoration of Gallefrey. Getting back to the New Series, we would think, going by the EDA novels, that the Doctor MUST have restored it, but the Big Finish line has the same old Gallefrey we know and love, not restored, leading up to a war with the Daleks.

Now this is all good for about half an hour. If Big Finish leads us up to the Last Great Time War, why play fill in the blanks by introducing the EDA novels and comics in to a continuity that is so contradictory, by a massive scale in the story? What is the BBC doing? Why hasn't Big Finish, or the BBC in general ever presented a massive doing like the restoration of Gallefrey, restoring the web of time set by Rassilon, etc.? We could easily put the novels on a different time line and allowed them to be their own stand alone continuity, but BF has other plans.

So there are two massive plot discrepancies. The destruction of Gallefrey twice. Since there is no reference to a restored Gallefrey, we must see the Time War of the EDA novels, and the Time War of the New Series as separate continuities. In fact I'm not really convinced that the New Series directly connects to previous canon at all, D9 being over 1000 years younger, Gallefrey destroyed without an explanation of the other seven Gallefreys, it's first destruction or its restoration. Yes the restoration was hinted once, but never discussed, never made an actual event in the story, New show or Classic.

Technically the story that began in 1963 carries on without too many bumps all through the series end, the Virgin and BBC novels. A single epic storyline. Then comes RTD creating another and separate (by his own words) Time War and in a way another continuity altogether. Meanwhile Big Finish seems to want to glue the whole thing together... A tall order. The more I look into the 8th Doctor's continuity, the more I'm beginning to consider bottle universes.

Still I have to agree with the Reference Guide that the Novels come at the end, as there is never a restoration episode or a story that takes place upon a restored Gallefrey.

[matty9896]

Other websites I have seen have had the initial Big Finish stuff (with Charley) occurring in the '3 year gap', along with 'The Dying Days' and the Radio Times strip, and then had all of the novels, and then the DWM strips, and then had all of the rest of the Big Finish stuff (with Lucie Miller) happen after all that is over.

There is no visit to Gallifrey in these later audios, and no mention of Romana being president either. Also, the BF team are clearly trying to build towards (in some sense) the Time War with recent audios. So this fits together.

And also, in 'Orbis', the Doctor is imprisoned for (I think) 600 years, so this simply can't occur in the 3 year gap.

[drwhotardis100]

Personally I think the order's this 8/sam before green peace rally, 8/Benny, 8/stacy and Ssard, 8/ Samson and Gemma, 8/Mary Shelley, 8/ Charley/ and C'rizz, 8 on his own (the novellas), 8/Sam after green peace. Then All the novels, all the comics, and then 8/lucie audios, with Dark Eyes.