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Dec 31, 2009, 9:44pm

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jeremiahecks
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8th Doctor Audios Question
« Thread Started on Oct 30, 2009, 12:54pm »
Hi folks, it's my first post - be nice. ;p

I just had a question about the 8th Doctor audios - on this site they are placed before the BBC books, in the '3 year gap', but surely this doesn't make entire sense?

The Zygon Who Fell to Earth is set after The Bodysnatchers, placing at least the Big Finish Lucie Seasons after the books. But they follow on after the Charlie Big Finish stuff, adding to the fact that Charlie isn't mentioned in BBC stuff anyway.

There are some problems that can only be solved by placing the BBC books before Big Finish - but there are some caused by it. We know Doctor 8 gets Gallifrey back after Gallifrey Chronicals, so the existence of Gallifrey isn't a problem in Big Finish. However, Romana is in 2nd incarnation in the Big Finish books. I think it's very easy to say that Big Finish's Romana stories are set for her before her BBC Book continuity but surely it is easier to suppose that when Doctor 8 restores Gallifrey, he restores her as a younger, yet wiser, body than her third. And that maybe, Romana in Zagreus is possibly... Romana 4? My head spins.

Also, I do think if you put in the Stacy / Ssard stories and the other Izzy comic stories with the ongoing Big Finish stuff, it IS rather a lot to put before the BBC stuff gets going. And besides, if Big Finish did something crazy like bring back Fitz or something, then we'd have to look at the order all over again. My head hurts.

Maybe I'm thinking too hard.

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-Jeremiah Ecks,
who asks that you do NOT call him Jeremy.
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Re: 8th Doctor Audios Question
« Reply #1 on Nov 3, 2009, 8:24am »

Oct 30, 2009, 12:54pm, jeremiahecks wrote:
...if Big Finish did something crazy like bring back Fitz or something, then we'd have to look at the order all over again. My head hurts...


jeremiahecks welcome to the Reference Guide forums!
Have you seen that there is an 8th Doc audio coming out that features both Izzy and Fitz in two separate stories? [http://www.bigfinish.com/123-Doctor-Who-The-Company-of-Friends] I have a feeling your head is about to hurt even more ;)

I personally am not educated in the eighth Doctor's timeline, but I'm sure there is someone who would gladly entertain your questions however, sadly, there doesn't seem to be much activity happening on this forum currently. But I'm sure someone will come along eventually...

Please feel free to contribute to discussions elsewhere in the forum or even start more mind bending topics just like this one!
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Re: 8th Doctor Audios Question
« Reply #2 on Nov 4, 2009, 4:44pm »
Hi Jeremiah,

I was once educated in the Eighth Doctor's timeline, sadly the understanding has slipped away.
The simplest explanation, sadly enough, is wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey. As far as I can remember, Eight's adventures (like most Doctors') don't make sense and join in one neat long string (to the horror of at least one person on this forum).

When shelving them or reading books and listening to audios at the same time, I find it easiest to arrange a continuity based on parallel continuities, where you put them in the order that makes the most sense, and if one story doesn't entirely fit then you think of it as happening in an alternate but almost identical timeline. This actually works well.

It has been many years since I read The Bodysnatchers, and I haven't heard The Zygon Who Fell To Earth. What particular event in the story causes you to place it after The Bodysnatchers?

Again, I'm far from up to date with Big Finish stories (something to do with the shortage of money), but from what I know of them both of your suggestions regarding Romana make perfectly good sense. In any case, you have to remember that the Doctor doesn't experience time linearly, and therefore does not always arrive after he left if you see what I mean. I believe there is a legal/scientific restriction on TARDISes arriving on Gallifrey before they left, but when have the laws of the Time Lords or indeed the universe stopped the Doctor? His interactions with Romana are not necessarily experienced in the same order as hers with him. A further point is that this is the incarnation of The Doctor that dealt with Sabbath and Faction Paradox, so his timeline shouldn't really be consistent to us as outside observers.

I'm fairly sure that Fitz's Story in Company Of Friends fits neatly into the EDAs, just as Benny's probably fits just after The Dying Days. I actually really liked Fitz, so I hope this is a good story that may lead to more appearances of the character.

To me the length of time between the start and the bulk of the EDA line is not really that great considering that a Time Lord can plausibly live for a millenium in good physical condition, and that the Eighth Doctor is particularly prone to absent-mindedness.
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jeremiahecks
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Re: 8th Doctor Audios Question
« Reply #3 on Nov 5, 2009, 10:26am »
>When shelving them or reading books and listening to audios at the same time, I find it easiest to arrange a continuity based on parallel continuities, where you put them in the order that makes the most sense, and if one story doesn't entirely fit then you think of it as happening in an alternate but almost identical timeline. This actually works well.

Yeah, it works well except a) it's too boring to say 'AU' explanation (where's the fun in that!) and b) Company of Friends actually directly places them in the same continuity... or if not exactly the same, roughly the same. ;p

> It has been many years since I read The Bodysnatchers, and I haven't heard The Zygon Who Fell To Earth. What particular event in the story causes you to place it after The Bodysnatchers?

Apparently the events of one are mentioned by the other. I have read or heard neither.

> In any case, you have to remember that the Doctor doesn't experience time linearly, and therefore does not always arrive after he left if you see what I mean. I believe there is a legal/scientific restriction on TARDISes arriving on Gallifrey before they left,

They're 'time locked', just like he can't go back beyond the Time War.

> His interactions with Romana are not necessarily experienced in the same order as hers with him.

Armaggeddon Factor proves that this is definitely the case, as for Romana it's 'Blood Harvest, Goth Opera' and then 'Armageddon' whilst for the Doctor it's 'Goth Opera, Armageddon' and then 'Blood Harvest'. ;p

> I'm fairly sure that Fitz's Story in Company Of Friends fits neatly into the EDAs, just as Benny's probably fits just after The Dying Days. I actually really liked Fitz, so I hope this is a good story that may lead to more appearances of the character.

They do, and I hope they will. :)

> To me the length of time between the start and the bulk of the EDA line is not really that great considering that a Time Lord can plausibly live for a millenium in good physical condition, and that the Eighth Doctor is particularly prone to absent-mindedness.

Except he does say to Sam he was gone for three Earth years, and that if you put the Big Finish'es there, it severely limits what the range can do with the character to a degree.

I think I've made up my own mind anyway. ;p Just wanted to know if this site agreed.

Now to untangle Master continuity... :) :) :)

Kindest regards,
-Jeremiah Ecks, Continuity Miestro.
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Re: 8th Doctor Audios Question
« Reply #4 on Nov 6, 2009, 7:53am »
Well, its hardly fun. But its a method that lets you enjoy your stories and your theorising separately, without doing one as a chore required before the other.

I thought 'time locked' was an RTD thing, but it makes sense in that context as well.

Of course, Goth Opera is one of my favourite novels and I should have used that example. Thank you.

Glad to see I'm not the only Fitz fan as well!

And of course I haven't read (or haven't remembered) the three years reference. Still, I have recently assembled a complete set of EDA ebooks, so I can read them through in order at last. Hopefully the time for such an activity will materialise.

Master continuity is all yours! However, I will be keen to read your findings. =)
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jeremiahecks
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Re: 8th Doctor Audios Question
« Reply #5 on Nov 22, 2009, 6:58pm »
The Three Year reference, I think, comes from when the Doctor takes Sam Jones to the marriage of Stacy Townsend and Ssard. She kind of gets leary at him and he points out he spent three years away or something. I haven't read the book, I'm just going off of what I've been told. But they put the reference in there to tidily fit the Doctor's comic book, Shada and his solo New Adventures story in with the BBC Books continuity. This is before Big Finish shot it all to heck, in the best possible way. ;)

You could very easily plop Big Finish into the three year gap except a) it's a LOT of stories for a mere three year gap, b) you may create future problems because if the Big Finish guys really change the Eigth Doctor's character and status quo, that might not follow where the BBC guys take him, c) creates conflicts between War of the Daleks and Terror Firma which aren't easily dealt with and d) the Eigth Doctor of the BBC books seems to have less experience early on that the Big Finish one. That is purely down to my own interpretation, o'course. ;)

The only problems at all you face with putting the Doctor's Big Finish stories after the BBC ones are a) Romana, Leela and K-9 - but this isn't insurmountable as I hope I showed, b) that darn Mary Shelley - the Doctor travels with her around the same time as Samson and Gemma, who kick off his Big Finish continuity, but I guess he mentions Mary Shelley in the BBC books, does he?, and c) Gallifrey being back. A) & C) can be both dealt with at the same time, as I said - the Doctor restores Gallifrey somehow and in doing so, either Romana is resurrected in an earlier body or this is her fourth incarnation that just happens to mirror her second, and b) whilst more difficult is easy to sweep under the carpet of, once again, the Doctor is name-dropping without realising what is going to happen in his future.

Sigh, this is so much fun in of itself. :) I'm really sad, aren't I? The BBC need to hire me to be their continuity editor. ^_^

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who would love to see an 'official' resolution to some of these questions by seeing a 'final' BBC book showing the restoration of Gallifrey. Shame it was going to die a second time, though...
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Re: 8th Doctor Audios Question
« Reply #6 on Nov 22, 2009, 7:05pm »
Oh, incidentally, 'time locked' seems to be a Russel T thing, but it seemed to be the right description for what I was trying to say. Some stories outright state that the Doctor can't and shouldn't meet Time Lords 'out of order' (a big thing of this is made when the Delgado Master shows up to meet I believe the Sixth - or Fifth? - Doctor). However, some don't seem to mind - the Sixth and Fifth Doctors both meet Romana when she gets back from E-Space but she hasn't technically returned yet - she comes back witn the Seventh Doctor later. So I think it's another rule, but it can be broken.

Best example is in Prisoner of the Daleks where the Doctor finds himself back along the Daleks' time stream before the Time War.

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who has just wondered if anybody has ever done a Dalek timeline? Like, one which makes sense... Oy vey.
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